Sooo...Watchmen
Jul. 23rd, 2008 12:11 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
weewarriorI've finally started reading the graphic novel, because somebody (and another somebody) urged me to do so, and it's totally depressing, yet awesomely compelling, and I can't stop reading it and now there are only 4 issues left, and.... erm. Help?
Also, somewhat cryptically: the Lost producers have read this, too, right? Some elements seemed *really* familiar.
ETA: There are now spoilers in the comments.
Also, somewhat cryptically: the Lost producers have read this, too, right? Some elements seemed *really* familiar.
ETA: There are now spoilers in the comments.
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(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-23 10:00 am (UTC)*g* I have the tendency to be a little mulish about these things, so it's usually best to let me sit and figure out stuff myself. I'll usually see the light eventually.
Depressing: first of all it's the era in itself - mid-eighties, just pre-Glasnost and Perestroika (and I suppose that wouldn't have happened in the Watchmen universe, anyway). I was a child around that time, and though I of course didn't understand it, a lot of the general anxiety made a rather profound impression on me, which again always colours my perception of texts dealing with and written in these years.
In addition, I have a bunch of reactions and emotions regarding power in the hands of those people, who are dangerous because they feel it's their job to make decisions and how they rationalize their decisions - that goes for Rorschach on a smaller level, and for Ozymandias on a larger scale (although, not having finished it yet, despite knowing the plot, I can't say much about Ozymandias before I've actually read it).
Both the meaning of the title quote - Who watches the Watchmen? Obviously, no one - and a sentence from Hollis Mason's Tell-All which is printed in the earlier issues, wherein he muses that without masked adventurers, the situation would be half as bad as it is, resonated a lot with me in that regard. The conclusion, while consequential, is also very sobering, both on a real life level if I take it metaphorical for actual society and power abuse, and on a fictional level since it pretty much slays the idea of "true" heroism. Then again, that probably isn't bad, because the idea that there is something like a true, infallible hero is rather dangerous in the first place.
And finally, on a completely different level, it really depresses me that Rorschach is allegedly the most popular of the characters. Most interesting, I would find tolerable, but most popular? He's a right-wing lunatic! Oh, fandom! *shakes head*
Of course, I now have to ask, which is your most favourite Alan Moore comic?
(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-23 08:01 pm (UTC)FWIW, what resonates for me is the lack of choice any of the characters seem to really have over their actions. Obviously Jon is the most extreme, but the notion that patterns shape peoples' lives almost to the extent of removing their conscious will struck me very powerfully. (Doesn't everyone will Laurie not to climb those stairs just to prove that Jon can be wrong about everything being fixed in place?) This has an impact on how I regard the morality of the heroes' actions because it seems to suggest they are doomed to do them whether they want to or not. Like how Laurie ends up doing it. Of course, Rorschach takes an extreme stance against such thinking and that is sort of convincing too. I guess I am easily swayed by Moore's characters. They get right into my head and little fragments of their speech have stayed with me and pop into my head sometimes.
It's fascinating that the book brings you back to the pre Glasnost times with depression. It has the opposite effect on me. I too remember the bonechilling fear all too well, and at least now I can think "Hey - I never DID die of radiation sickness like I thought I was going to thanks to books like this and 'Children of the Dust'"
I can really appreciate it having an opposite effect though.
Man that IS depressing. I choose to believe that they think he is the most interesting and complex rather than they want to be his friend. The alternative is chilling ;)
Well, it's a close run thing for me. When I posted, I had "From Hell" in mind but I do sometimes wonder if "Watchmen" isn't just as enjoyable. I think I tend to get swayed in favour of the one I'd read more recently. Frankly, there are very few comics by Alan Moore that I don't love, though. "Top Ten" (a sort of Hill Street Blues with powers) is a very enjoyable read and lighter than "From Hell", for instance.
Thanks so much for giving me your thoughts in detail! It's so long since I first read "Watchmen" that I think I've long lost my sense of what my first impressions were - yours are fascinating :) Interested to know what you think of the ending when you get there.
I
Date: 2008-07-24 09:04 am (UTC)The question is, though, if vigilantism would be the only possible answer, and I think that's thinking too short. You'd also have the problem that people start relying on the vigilante doing the job, so to speak, and therefore ignore situations in which they could and probably should help even more.
I just find it very ironic that the next-to-last issue has an instant of a group of people intervening in a domestic violence situation, and I think it's the one positive example of "normal" people acting together, from the desire to help instead of harm. And that gets then crushed by Adrian's monster arriving and killing them all.
So yes, I do think they would be better off without superheroes, because none of them (the heroes) sees beyond their ideas of what people are actually like. Rorschach just sees everything that's bad, and if he encounters somebody who wants to help him, who is friendly, he just disdains that. Adrian just sees people as something to be used and ruled. For Jon, a person is the same as a flower or plankton or a supernova. And Dan and Laurie, who are the only ones probably normal enough to have an actual connection to the people they "protect" are too caught up in their own drama to have a broader view. That the notion of protecting society, of making it better, actually involves the people in that society doesn't even come to their minds, they are stuck with this condescending idea of protecting everyone like they are children.
(Random aside: interestingly enough, the truth of the Kitty Genovese incident as it is commonly described is apparently disputed. There seem to be some exaggerations at play.)
FWIW, what resonates for me is the lack of choice any of the characters seem to really have over their actions.
I don't see it that way. Even Jon - has he ever tried not to do what he sees? He knows he will kill someone, but he makes the decision that that's Rorschach. He makes the decision to tell Laurie that he knows she will walk up those stairs, feeding into her notion that there is nothing in her life she decides for herself. And Laurie - yes, she walked up those stairs, but did she have to dye her hair blond and run away with Dan? She has seen all those dead people and makes the decision to turn away from it. She does have moral responsibility for doing that, I don't think there is a lack of choice involved here.
I guess I am easily swayed by Moore's characters. They get right into my head and little fragments of their speech have stayed with me and pop into my head sometimes.
I think it's all very powerful, but I don't find it persuasive. I think they are all wrong, but I also think the system they are working in is wrong in the first place, because it allows someone like Adrian to have the power to make decisions without having the means to hold him accountable. I'm not a political scholar but there is definitely something lacking here.
I can really appreciate it having an opposite effect though.
I find it extremely interesting that it seems to have the opposite effect on you. I still sometimes have nightmares about nuclear war or pandemics. I guess I was a very impressionable child. *g*
Re: I
Date: 2008-07-25 05:21 pm (UTC)It has never really occurred to me to approach that incident in those terms but not that I've now done so yes, you make an excellent point. And yes, viewing the incident in those terms does have wider implications. Fascinating perspective to apply.
Well, here is where I suspect you'd be angry with me because I confess I'm not at all sure whether I'd I'd react like Rorsarch or like Dan & Laurie. Fro a pragmatic pov, those poor people are dead. The counter pov yells out that they die based on a monstrous lie and that there should always be truth, that you can't build a just world on top of lies. I'm ashamed to say that given the whole lack of chance to stop it, I'd probably see how things panned out rather
than instantly denounce it.
This is why I think the ending of Watchmen is more challenging than the similar plot in Heroes, by the way. Much easier to try and stop a future like in Five Years Gone which seems utterly awful rather than one which might seem rather positive but at a horrendous cost. Plus, the poor people are dead, so the choice is whether the end justifies the means, always fraught with danger.
On that, could you expand a little on the 'living in an Aryan theme park' view? I admit that surprised me because I sort of viewed their future, as I say, as having some positive elements. It had a US & USSR working on harmony, for instance much to the annoyance of the New Frontiersmen. The arms race was over. I'm now wondering whether I've overlooked something important which would be embarassing.
Heh. Oddly I do know and thought about saying a very similar aside (I posted about this over of the snopes Urban Legends board only last week). It's a case that has long interested me. I contented myself with observing that it is how Rorschach's experience rather than the more complex truth. I suspect thanks to the movie, the commonly reported view will be forever reinforced.
The choice thing: I was thinking about this today and though it will possibly sound mind bogglingl trite, I concluded one of the reasons I tend to think of these characters as being fated to act as they do is possibly the very simple fact that I've read the comic about a million times. Hence, my perspective when reading from the start is like Jon's. I know that the watch is going to get left in the jacket, that Janey will turn her back out of fear, that Laurie will leave, the whole thing. Obviously this is true of any story reread ever, but the underyling them of patterns recurriing and Jon's odd persepctive reinforce this to me. I do adore the very last page though - a perfect combination of random chance and choice!
Re: I, the first
Date: 2008-07-25 06:53 pm (UTC)than instantly denounce it.
Leaving the fact aside that those poor people were slaughtered because someone just decided this would be the best and most glorious way to solve the problem, akin to cutting the Gordian Knot (Adrian's parallel), the fact that Adrian uses this to press his personal mark even more on the world and get even more incredibly and marvellously rich while doing so doesn't piss you off the least? This isn't just a peaceful new world, it's one sponsored by Veidt.
As for whether such a world can be just, no, I don't think it can. It's a too perverted price to pay, and the result can only be rotten, even if it's pretty on the outside. If that puts me on Rorschach's side, so be it. Although seriously, I don't think it does, exactly, since I think what crushed him wasn't the casualties, it was the bad guy getting away with it - which in turn of course is a sign for there being no justice. Adrian should not benefit from the situation, but he does.
This is why I think the ending of Watchmen is more challenging than the similar plot in Heroes, by the way. Much easier to try and stop a future like in Five Years Gone which seems utterly awful rather than one which might seem rather positive but at a horrendous cost. Plus, the poor people are dead, so the choice is whether the end justifies the means, always fraught with danger.
I agree that Heroes made it rather simple, not least because they put the conflict with Sylar being in power, not with Nathan building up a suppressive state because of Roy Cohnish self-hatred, but I really don't see the ending of Watchmen as morally ambivalent, because I don't see the world it depicts as positive. A challenging ending it is, yes, but because it shows a world that is completely devoid of morality, at least in my view. (Obviously I don't mean morality in the "no icky sex, no swearing" sense) Which brings us to
On that, could you expand a little on the 'living in an Aryan theme park' view? I admit that surprised me because I sort of viewed their future, as I say, as having some positive elements. It had a US & USSR working on harmony, for instance much to the annoyance of the New Frontiersmen. The arms race was over. I'm now wondering whether I've overlooked something important which would be embarassing.
*g* I was referring glibly to the advertisement on page 31 panel 4 of the twelfth issue, which depicts a blonde, happy couple who look like they are copied from a Nazi propaganda poster for the thousand years empire (is that what it's called in English? I'm more familiar with the German term: Tausendjähriges Reich.). Incidentally it's an ad for a Veidt perfume (I presume), which is called "Millennium." Add to that Dan and Laurie's disguise and blonde, blue-eyed Robert Redford running for presidency, and it's all very ... creepy. Apart from that, though, I do think there are more than a few fascist flavours to Adrian's view of the world, the notion that it's fine to sacrifice how many people you chose for the good of [insert your group of choice here - the Nazis obviously had what they saw as the "Germanic Race," Adrian probably would chose Earth inhabitants] among them.
Like I said, for me what brought about this "new world" makes it impossible to view it as untainted, but even apart from that, I was wondering if the inability to voice criticism against the new allies only goes for the radical right, or if it is a general suppression of more diverse opinions, probably in the name of "keeping up the morale," which seems a step closer to something totalitarian than is truly comfortable.
And of course there is the fact that Veidt products are everywhere. Whether you're pro-capitalism or not, one producer basically controlling the market generally isn't regarded as a sign of freedom, is it?
Re: I, the first
Date: 2008-07-25 08:46 pm (UTC)It pisses me off hugely, believe me! And yes, it's maddening that he seems to be profiting so successfully. (I take commfort that his sould gets eaten from the inside, Black Freighter style) But for me, the thing is that the crime is a fait accompli. So the choice isn't stopping it, it's whether the new world is, on balance worth a try given that 3 million people have just lost their lives. Beacuse no punishment could be bad enough for Vedit to balance those scales. Plus, I presume that uncovering the deception would be the last straw for the Russians. I had always believed that uncovering Veidt's plan would lead to nuclear destruction.
I had a look at the last few pages - you are spot on about the imagery of the 1000 year reich in the perfume poster. Hmmn. so now I have to choose between death and Nazis?? Tough call.
Do you know, I never though about that. I assumed it was akin to the banning of Hate Speech but it is a lot more ambiguous. I'm loving talking to you - so mnay things I never really thought about and now seem so obvious!
Re: I, the second
Date: 2008-07-25 06:54 pm (UTC)Last thought: very likely. Rorschach's view: I think he was so fascinated by the story because it completely reinforces his worldview, and here I can definitely see why it would be so compelling to believe this version of the story. Let's just say I was surprised it apparently wasn't true, and was in turn very fascinated by that reaction.
Obviously this is true of any story reread ever, but the underyling them of patterns recurriing and Jon's odd persepctive reinforce this to me. I do adore the very last page though - a perfect combination of random chance and choice!
Maybe you need tachyons? *g* I have to admit I generally look for patterns, foreshadowing and themes in stories (mystery fan and basically English major, some things you just can't help), so it didn't jump at me specifically in this case, other than that it is of course extremely well crafted - and that poor Jon must have had the mother of all headaches, before he figured out how to deal with his situation.
I do find the idea of being practically like Jon when reading the book fascinating, though. I was wondering why the idea of fate in the context of the story doesn't bug me, but I think it depends whether you believe that even everything being determined still leaves you a choice in what to do - even Jon makes the choice to leave in the end, and even if he knows he will do that, he still has to make the choice, or it won't happen. (See what I mean about the headache?)
As for the last page, it is somewhat bleak, isn't it? The truth in the hand of complete idiots...
II
Date: 2008-07-24 09:05 am (UTC)Oh dear, yes. My actual fear is not something like that, it's that people might like him akin to how many fans seem to like Sylar of Heroes - as a hardened, amoral badass instead of a lunatic killer. Like Wolverine is amazingly popular, only without taking into account that Sylar and Rorschach are actually meant to be bad. But I could be wrong! I hope I am.
I think I tend to get swayed in favour of the one I'd read more recently.
Hee. I know the phenomenon. From Hell is something I'm very interested in, and Top Ten sounds intriguing. I'll do V for Vendetta first, though, since I actually own that one.
Interested to know what you think of the ending when you get there.
Depressing. They basically end up in an Aryan theme park! Like I said above, I think there were flickers of hope when all those minor characters came together to save the woman from her ex-lover, and I chose to believe that that is worth more than Ozymandias' icky version of a perfect world. (But yeah, I was glad that Jon not so subtly hinted that it would all blow up in Adrian's face eventually, one way or the other.)
It's great fun discussing this with you!