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Ernsthaft, wenn ich mit einem scheinheiligen Arschloch, das gerne Moralstücke mit unglückseligen Fremden inszeniert, auf ewig auf einer Insel festsitzen würde, dann wäre ich auch mordlustig.
( Seriously, if I were trapped on an island for all eternity with a sanctimonious prick who likes to stage morality plays with hapless strangers, I'd be kind of homicidal, too.)
( Seriously, if I were trapped on an island for all eternity with a sanctimonious prick who likes to stage morality plays with hapless strangers, I'd be kind of homicidal, too.)
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-24 11:40 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-24 11:51 am (UTC)Jacob on the other hand may be a huge dick, but he has the free will thing, and his promises have been more along the lines of hard, but fair (i.e. Dogen's son will live, but Dogen can never see him again, Juliet's sister is cancer free, but Juliet has to stay on the island, etc.). So he's good, he's simply not nice, in any possible way.
And yet I still find him incredibly obnoxious.
Btw, since we have Team Jacob, I'm always inclined to call the people with Smokey Team Edward...
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-24 03:00 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-24 04:27 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-24 04:50 pm (UTC)And, really, it's impossible to tell how much of his homicidal tendencies are because that's just what he does, and how much actually comes out of being angry and frustrated and wanting out. (One of the sad truths about prisons is that they often make people worse. It's possible that part of his behavior is arguably Jacob's fault from that perspective, too.)
(I don't know why I write so weird today)
Date: 2010-03-24 05:58 pm (UTC)I'm thinking about it, but I think there really is no proof for him being the harbinger of an apocalypse in story other than Smokey being pretty formidable, and quite obviously an evil liar, and sporting a decidedly awesome Glare Of Evil in the Terry O'Quinn version every time no one's watching him. I mean, Titus Welliver looks already pretty pissed off, but O'Quinn is really quite intimidating. (And I love him for it, but I admit, I really miss Locke.)
Re: (I don't know why I write so weird today)
Date: 2010-03-24 06:11 pm (UTC)And, yes, I miss Locke, too. Although, I will admit, less than I expected to, since we still get Terry O'Quinn being awesome at us every week (and twice over on weeks with alt!Locke bits).
Re: (I don't know why I write so weird today)
Date: 2010-03-24 06:41 pm (UTC)Yes, but Ben had a reason for his behaviour: he served the island. Mind you, he also tried everything to ensure he would stay in power, which is a less than admirable trait, but he didn't manipulate and kill people just for the fun of it. Contrary to that, Smokey kills people because he is pissed off, basically - and because he feels they need to be judged (Eko, and I think that's something which is hinted at in his first conversation with Jacob). What, then, if he gets out, and feels his view on humans proven at every turn and decides they all need to be punished?
(And by the way, I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here, since I'm really not down with the idea that this is some ultimate fight between good and evil.)
Re: (I don't know why I write so weird today)
Date: 2010-03-24 06:54 pm (UTC)And that's really me playing devil's advocate, myself -- literally, even! -- because I'm actually not in favor of unsealing this particular can. I just don't necessarily trust Jacob's take on the situation any more than I trust Smokey's.
Re: (I don't know why I write so weird today)
Date: 2010-03-24 07:33 pm (UTC)We don't, admittedly, but if you look at the first conversation between him and Jacob, he clearly has no positive opinion of humanity:
S: You're trying to prove me wrong, aren't ya?
J: You are wrong.
S: Am I? They come, fight, they destroy, they corrupt. It always ends the same.
J: It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.
S: Do you have any idea how badly I wanna kill you?
The interesting thing about this conversation, of course, is that they do come across as equals, and as equally detached from people - Smokey thinks they're inherently bad, Jacob uses them to prove a point. Or, to give an alternative interpretation, if he is looking for a candidate to replace him, he, too, is probably tired of being trapped on the island. The question is then, is all that he does only an incredibly long and involved con to get someone to kill Smokey? Or rather, if Smokey is really evil incarnate, why not just kill him, instead of keeping him imprisoned?
Re: (I don't know why I write so weird today)
Date: 2010-03-24 07:52 pm (UTC)Oh, absolutely. But knowing what we know now, well... Smokey is just sitting there and bitching about how people suck. Which is not exactly an uncommon pastime. It's Jacob who's actually, y'know, messing with people's lives. Of the two, based on just that moment, there's one I know I'm not happy to have out and about messing around with humanity in general, and one I can only speculate about.
Which, again, isn't to say that I actually think Smokey is a poor misunderstood woobie or anything. I'm with you on the whole "sinking the island plus Smokey and whatever is left of Jacob" thing. I'm just reserving judgment on the question of which one is actually the lesser evil here, and to what extent their opinions and statements about each other can be trusted.
The question is then, is all that he does only an incredibly long and involved con to get someone to kill Smokey?
You have a twisty and devious mind. Which means you might be right. :) Although Jacob hasn't given any indication of being anything but surprised and unhappy about being dead, so that would hardly seem to be part of his plan, if there is one.
Or rather, if Smokey is really evil incarnate, why not just kill him, instead of keeping him imprisoned?
A damned good question. Part of the "rules" they've talked about, perhaps? Which just raises the question of where the heck those rules come from in the first place.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-24 11:06 pm (UTC)Something that intrigued me about the ep is that Hurley is better at talking to dead people than Miles is. Miles gets their dying thoughts, but Hurley has whole convos.
Also, is the evil being contained the man in black? Maybe it's something else altogether and they are both guardians in their way.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-25 10:31 am (UTC)I'm positive they actually changed that. When we get Miles first mini flashback, he is talking to the ghost and asking him where he hid his money. The ghost seems to answer, too, because he finds it.
Also, is the evil being contained the man in black? Maybe it's something else altogether and they are both guardians in their way.
I don't think the Man in Black is a guardian - he told Sawyer (and I think Kate and Sayid?) that there was nothing to protect the island from and that Jacob was talking nonsense.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-25 08:24 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-24 11:19 pm (UTC)Astro, could we continue any discussion on your journal as my comments are screened here?
And, yes, I miss Locke, too. Although, I will admit, less than I expected to, since we still get Terry O'Quinn being awesome at us every week (and twice over on weeks with alt!Locke bits).
Agreed! I was very upset at Locke's death because I felt that he got such an incredibly raw deal all along. However alt-Locke and most of the others are having a much better life without Jacob's intervention, which already had me doubting Jacob's goodness. As for the B&W symbolism of the stones and clothes etc, those colours have quite different meaning in other cultures. [wonders about Egypt]
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-24 11:40 pm (UTC)Agreed! I was very upset at Locke's death because I felt that he got such an incredibly raw deal all along.
Exactly. I didn't really like his zealotry, but I felt horrible when it turned out he had basically been duped yet again.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-24 11:58 pm (UTC)I think Locke was a fanatic because he desperately needed something to live for. He seems to be having a much better life this time around, though I'm not sure if the father who would come to his wedding is his biological one, whom Ford is after, or his adoptive one. We never heard much about the couple who brought him up.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-25 10:24 am (UTC)This makes me sound a lot more geeky than I usually am about the show, but when SideLocke was fired by Randy, you can see some pictures on his cubicle wall and one is of him and Anthony Cooper, so it's definitely his biological father.
I suppose there will be some sort of catch: maybe Cooper heard that the Fords died because of his scheme and gave up his con ways, or he was caught and served jail time? For whatever reason, he definitely seems to have stopped short of conning his son.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-26 06:32 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-24 04:19 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-24 04:28 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-24 04:54 pm (UTC)[ETA: And thought #4 was "Smokey is Sealed Evil in a Can!", thus proving that I've been spending way too much time on TV Tropes.]
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-24 05:43 pm (UTC)Both the history and the Lost geek in me winced at that point - British Slave trade had been abolished in 1833 and this was set in 1867! Nevermind that the Spanish government presumably didn't sell off their prisoners, either...
And as for an in-story nitpick, if the first mate of the Black Rock was killed presumably a few hours after landing on the island, how did he manage to write about the shipwreck in his ledger, and how did that end up with pirates on the coast of Madagascar? And who did bury Magnus Hanso, Smokey? Clearly all of these questions are much more important than who is good and who is evil here. :P
[ETA: And thought #4 was "Smokey is Sealed Evil in a Can!", thus proving that I've been spending way too much time on TV Tropes.]
*g* I thought the same...
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-24 06:04 pm (UTC)I was wondering about that, but was historically ignorant enough to be able shrug it off with a "Well, maybe it's OK." Thanks for disillusioning me. ;)
And I'd forgotten most of the details we already knew about the Black Rock, too, apparently. Hmm. possibly most of those nitpicks could be handwaved away with a sufficient investment of mental energy, but I don't think I have that much available. :)
*g* I thought the same...
Well, it is nice to know it's not just me. :)
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-24 06:35 pm (UTC)What cracks me up about these is actually that the episode was written by Elizabeth Sarnoff and Greg Nations - and he is officially Lost's continuity guy. ;)
(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-24 06:37 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-25 11:54 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-03-25 12:04 pm (UTC)