weewarrior

I think they are trying to confuse us on purpose, but if you dig through their sneaky subterfuge, it's not that difficult. Smokey keeps promising people great things as long as they help them, which to me really parallels the way the Christian Devil is usually portrayed. And seriously, he keeps killing people in messy ways that's just - not all that good. And of course, he lies, excessively.

Jacob on the other hand may be a huge dick, but he has the free will thing, and his promises have been more along the lines of hard, but fair (i.e. Dogen's son will live, but Dogen can never see him again, Juliet's sister is cancer free, but Juliet has to stay on the island, etc.). So he's good, he's simply not nice, in any possible way.

And yet I still find him incredibly obnoxious.

Btw, since we have Team Jacob, I'm always inclined to call the people with Smokey Team Edward...

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selenak.livejournal.com

Gilt für mich ebenso. :) To paraphrase the famous comment about Milton, Lost is of the devil's party without knowing it?

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They certainly make a damn good case for Smokey - and at the same time, give enough reasons (or rather, dead people) why he probably shouldn't be let out. Of course, I can't help feeling that at least part of his behaviour is Jacob's fault in the first place (notice how he blamed Jacob and not his Mum in front of Richard).

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Smokey is clearly Not a Good Guy, but I remain highly unconvinced by Jacob's assertion that he'd just spew apocalyptic evil all over the place if he ever got out. Might be true. Might not be. So far, yeah, he's killed people, he's manipulated people, and he's clearly a cynical bastard, but I haven't seen any signs that his favorite hobby is burning cities to the ground and dancing on the ashes or anything.

And, really, it's impossible to tell how much of his homicidal tendencies are because that's just what he does, and how much actually comes out of being angry and frustrated and wanting out. (One of the sad truths about prisons is that they often make people worse. It's possible that part of his behavior is arguably Jacob's fault from that perspective, too.)

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Smokey is clearly Not a Good Guy, but I remain highly unconvinced by Jacob's assertion that he'd just spew apocalyptic evil all over the place if he ever got out.

I'm thinking about it, but I think there really is no proof for him being the harbinger of an apocalypse in story other than Smokey being pretty formidable, and quite obviously an evil liar, and sporting a decidedly awesome Glare Of Evil in the Terry O'Quinn version every time no one's watching him. I mean, Titus Welliver looks already pretty pissed off, but O'Quinn is really quite intimidating. (And I love him for it, but I admit, I really miss Locke.)

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No, I really don't think there is any proof other than Jacob's say-so. Yes, Smokey sure engages in some evil behavior, but so does Ben. I'm trying to imagine a super-powered Ben loose in the world... It's a scary thought, but I don't think it would result in apocalypse.

And, yes, I miss Locke, too. Although, I will admit, less than I expected to, since we still get Terry O'Quinn being awesome at us every week (and twice over on weeks with alt!Locke bits).

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I'm trying to imagine a super-powered Ben loose in the world... It's a scary thought, but I don't think it would result in apocalypse.

Yes, but Ben had a reason for his behaviour: he served the island. Mind you, he also tried everything to ensure he would stay in power, which is a less than admirable trait, but he didn't manipulate and kill people just for the fun of it. Contrary to that, Smokey kills people because he is pissed off, basically - and because he feels they need to be judged (Eko, and I think that's something which is hinted at in his first conversation with Jacob). What, then, if he gets out, and feels his view on humans proven at every turn and decides they all need to be punished?

(And by the way, I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here, since I'm really not down with the idea that this is some ultimate fight between good and evil.)

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Well, Smokey does have a reason for a lot of his behavior (possibly even more of it than is immediately obvious): he wants to get off the damned island. It also may actually be understandable that he's pissy... I dunno. He strikes me as possibly more amoral than evil. Which makes him interesting, and unpredictable... It's entirely possible that he might have a judgmental hissy fit all over humanity but I don't think it necessarily follows from what we know of him so far; we know nothing of his desires or intentions beyond getting out.

And that's really me playing devil's advocate, myself -- literally, even! -- because I'm actually not in favor of unsealing this particular can. I just don't necessarily trust Jacob's take on the situation any more than I trust Smokey's.

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It's entirely possible that he might have a judgmental hissy fit all over humanity but I don't think it necessarily follows from what we know of him so far; we know nothing of his desires or intentions beyond getting out.

We don't, admittedly, but if you look at the first conversation between him and Jacob, he clearly has no positive opinion of humanity:

S: You're trying to prove me wrong, aren't ya?
J: You are wrong.
S: Am I? They come, fight, they destroy, they corrupt. It always ends the same.
J: It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.
S: Do you have any idea how badly I wanna kill you?

The interesting thing about this conversation, of course, is that they do come across as equals, and as equally detached from people - Smokey thinks they're inherently bad, Jacob uses them to prove a point. Or, to give an alternative interpretation, if he is looking for a candidate to replace him, he, too, is probably tired of being trapped on the island. The question is then, is all that he does only an incredibly long and involved con to get someone to kill Smokey? Or rather, if Smokey is really evil incarnate, why not just kill him, instead of keeping him imprisoned?

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he clearly has no positive opinion of humanity:

Oh, absolutely. But knowing what we know now, well... Smokey is just sitting there and bitching about how people suck. Which is not exactly an uncommon pastime. It's Jacob who's actually, y'know, messing with people's lives. Of the two, based on just that moment, there's one I know I'm not happy to have out and about messing around with humanity in general, and one I can only speculate about.

Which, again, isn't to say that I actually think Smokey is a poor misunderstood woobie or anything. I'm with you on the whole "sinking the island plus Smokey and whatever is left of Jacob" thing. I'm just reserving judgment on the question of which one is actually the lesser evil here, and to what extent their opinions and statements about each other can be trusted.

The question is then, is all that he does only an incredibly long and involved con to get someone to kill Smokey?

You have a twisty and devious mind. Which means you might be right. :) Although Jacob hasn't given any indication of being anything but surprised and unhappy about being dead, so that would hardly seem to be part of his plan, if there is one.

Or rather, if Smokey is really evil incarnate, why not just kill him, instead of keeping him imprisoned?

A damned good question. Part of the "rules" they've talked about, perhaps? Which just raises the question of where the heck those rules come from in the first place.

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Yeah, I thought they were somehow unable to kill each other, that someone else had to do it. Wasn't that specified at some point?

Something that intrigued me about the ep is that Hurley is better at talking to dead people than Miles is. Miles gets their dying thoughts, but Hurley has whole convos.

Also, is the evil being contained the man in black? Maybe it's something else altogether and they are both guardians in their way.

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Miles gets their dying thoughts, but Hurley has whole convos.

I'm positive they actually changed that. When we get Miles first mini flashback, he is talking to the ghost and asking him where he hid his money. The ghost seems to answer, too, because he finds it.

Also, is the evil being contained the man in black? Maybe it's something else altogether and they are both guardians in their way.

I don't think the Man in Black is a guardian - he told Sawyer (and I think Kate and Sayid?) that there was nothing to protect the island from and that Jacob was talking nonsense.

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It could still be something other than him. The writers are twisty like that, and the island does have weird properties. Desmond thought he was containing a plague.

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Sorry,

wee_warrior, I thought this was

selenak's journal; I didn't look at the link to this discussion properly.

Astro, could we continue any discussion on your journal as my comments are screened here?

And, yes, I miss Locke, too. Although, I will admit, less than I expected to, since we still get Terry O'Quinn being awesome at us every week (and twice over on weeks with alt!Locke bits).

Agreed! I was very upset at Locke's death because I felt that he got such an incredibly raw deal all along. However alt-Locke and most of the others are having a much better life without Jacob's intervention, which already had me doubting Jacob's goodness. As for the B&W symbolism of the stones and clothes etc, those colours have quite different meaning in other cultures. [wonders about Egypt]

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Sorry,

vilakins, I had completely forgotten that the comments are set to screened! You can discuss here, if you want, I don't mind.

Agreed! I was very upset at Locke's death because I felt that he got such an incredibly raw deal all along.

Exactly. I didn't really like his zealotry, but I felt horrible when it turned out he had basically been duped yet again.

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Sorry for not checking where I was going! Astro's post mentioned

selenak so I assumed the link went there. :-P

I think Locke was a fanatic because he desperately needed something to live for. He seems to be having a much better life this time around, though I'm not sure if the father who would come to his wedding is his biological one, whom Ford is after, or his adoptive one. We never heard much about the couple who brought him up.

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He seems to be having a much better life this time around, though I'm not sure if the father who would come to his wedding is his biological one, whom Ford is after, or his adoptive one.

This makes me sound a lot more geeky than I usually am about the show, but when SideLocke was fired by Randy, you can see some pictures on his cubicle wall and one is of him and Anthony Cooper, so it's definitely his biological father.

I suppose there will be some sort of catch: maybe Cooper heard that the Fords died because of his scheme and gave up his con ways, or he was caught and served jail time? For whatever reason, he definitely seems to have stopped short of conning his son.

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Hey,

vilakins! Sorry for the mixup; it was all my bad. And for figuring I'd wait until

wee_warrior unscreened things to come back and reply to this, and then completely forgetting. I was apparently having a day of extraordinary brain-deadness, as you can probably tell by the fact that I was, y'know, calling people by each other's names. And probably mixing up who'd said what to me, too. :) Anyway, you can always pop into my LJ and discuss stuff if you want

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Yeah, my first thought at that little revelation was, OK, at this point I do think we are, and we'd damned well better be heading toward what you so aptly called the Vorlons & Shadows scenario, because I now officially disapprove of both of them. My second, and intimately related thought was that Jacob -- clearly representing the god to Smokey's devil -- reminds me why I'm glad I'm an atheist. :)

Edited Date: 2010-03-24 04:21 pm (UTC)

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By now I absolutely believe that sinking the island plus Smokey and whatever is left of Jacob is certainly the best idea.

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By the way, my other sudden thought during this episode was, "Hey, it's like that barrier around the center of the galaxy in Star Trek V!" I have been amusing myself ever since imagining lines like, "What does God want with a slave ship?" :)

[ETA: And thought #4 was "Smokey is Sealed Evil in a Can!", thus proving that I've been spending way too much time on TV Tropes.]

Edited Date: 2010-03-24 04:57 pm (UTC)

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"What does God want with a slave ship?" :)

Both the history and the Lost geek in me winced at that point - British Slave trade had been abolished in 1833 and this was set in 1867! Nevermind that the Spanish government presumably didn't sell off their prisoners, either...

And as for an in-story nitpick, if the first mate of the Black Rock was killed presumably a few hours after landing on the island, how did he manage to write about the shipwreck in his ledger, and how did that end up with pirates on the coast of Madagascar? And who did bury Magnus Hanso, Smokey? Clearly all of these questions are much more important than who is good and who is evil here. :P

[ETA: And thought #4 was "Smokey is Sealed Evil in a Can!", thus proving that I've been spending way too much time on TV Tropes.]

*g* I thought the same...

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British Slave trade had been abolished in 1833 and this was set in 1867! Nevermind that the Spanish government presumably didn't sell off their prisoners, either...

I was wondering about that, but was historically ignorant enough to be able shrug it off with a "Well, maybe it's OK." Thanks for disillusioning me. ;)

And I'd forgotten most of the details we already knew about the Black Rock, too, apparently. Hmm. possibly most of those nitpicks could be handwaved away with a sufficient investment of mental energy, but I don't think I have that much available. :)

*g* I thought the same...

Well, it is nice to know it's not just me. :)

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Hmm. possibly most of those nitpicks could be handwaved away with a sufficient investment of mental energy, but I don't think I have that much available. :)

What cracks me up about these is actually that the episode was written by Elizabeth Sarnoff and Greg Nations - and he is officially Lost's continuity guy. ;)

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Oh, dear. When even the official continuity guy can't keep track... LOL!

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paratti.livejournal.com

Actually the slave trade was abolished in 1807. Slavery in the Empire was 1833.

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