weewarrior

Smokey is clearly Not a Good Guy, but I remain highly unconvinced by Jacob's assertion that he'd just spew apocalyptic evil all over the place if he ever got out. Might be true. Might not be. So far, yeah, he's killed people, he's manipulated people, and he's clearly a cynical bastard, but I haven't seen any signs that his favorite hobby is burning cities to the ground and dancing on the ashes or anything.

And, really, it's impossible to tell how much of his homicidal tendencies are because that's just what he does, and how much actually comes out of being angry and frustrated and wanting out. (One of the sad truths about prisons is that they often make people worse. It's possible that part of his behavior is arguably Jacob's fault from that perspective, too.)

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Smokey is clearly Not a Good Guy, but I remain highly unconvinced by Jacob's assertion that he'd just spew apocalyptic evil all over the place if he ever got out.

I'm thinking about it, but I think there really is no proof for him being the harbinger of an apocalypse in story other than Smokey being pretty formidable, and quite obviously an evil liar, and sporting a decidedly awesome Glare Of Evil in the Terry O'Quinn version every time no one's watching him. I mean, Titus Welliver looks already pretty pissed off, but O'Quinn is really quite intimidating. (And I love him for it, but I admit, I really miss Locke.)

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No, I really don't think there is any proof other than Jacob's say-so. Yes, Smokey sure engages in some evil behavior, but so does Ben. I'm trying to imagine a super-powered Ben loose in the world... It's a scary thought, but I don't think it would result in apocalypse.

And, yes, I miss Locke, too. Although, I will admit, less than I expected to, since we still get Terry O'Quinn being awesome at us every week (and twice over on weeks with alt!Locke bits).

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I'm trying to imagine a super-powered Ben loose in the world... It's a scary thought, but I don't think it would result in apocalypse.

Yes, but Ben had a reason for his behaviour: he served the island. Mind you, he also tried everything to ensure he would stay in power, which is a less than admirable trait, but he didn't manipulate and kill people just for the fun of it. Contrary to that, Smokey kills people because he is pissed off, basically - and because he feels they need to be judged (Eko, and I think that's something which is hinted at in his first conversation with Jacob). What, then, if he gets out, and feels his view on humans proven at every turn and decides they all need to be punished?

(And by the way, I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here, since I'm really not down with the idea that this is some ultimate fight between good and evil.)

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Well, Smokey does have a reason for a lot of his behavior (possibly even more of it than is immediately obvious): he wants to get off the damned island. It also may actually be understandable that he's pissy... I dunno. He strikes me as possibly more amoral than evil. Which makes him interesting, and unpredictable... It's entirely possible that he might have a judgmental hissy fit all over humanity but I don't think it necessarily follows from what we know of him so far; we know nothing of his desires or intentions beyond getting out.

And that's really me playing devil's advocate, myself -- literally, even! -- because I'm actually not in favor of unsealing this particular can. I just don't necessarily trust Jacob's take on the situation any more than I trust Smokey's.

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It's entirely possible that he might have a judgmental hissy fit all over humanity but I don't think it necessarily follows from what we know of him so far; we know nothing of his desires or intentions beyond getting out.

We don't, admittedly, but if you look at the first conversation between him and Jacob, he clearly has no positive opinion of humanity:

S: You're trying to prove me wrong, aren't ya?
J: You are wrong.
S: Am I? They come, fight, they destroy, they corrupt. It always ends the same.
J: It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.
S: Do you have any idea how badly I wanna kill you?

The interesting thing about this conversation, of course, is that they do come across as equals, and as equally detached from people - Smokey thinks they're inherently bad, Jacob uses them to prove a point. Or, to give an alternative interpretation, if he is looking for a candidate to replace him, he, too, is probably tired of being trapped on the island. The question is then, is all that he does only an incredibly long and involved con to get someone to kill Smokey? Or rather, if Smokey is really evil incarnate, why not just kill him, instead of keeping him imprisoned?

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he clearly has no positive opinion of humanity:

Oh, absolutely. But knowing what we know now, well... Smokey is just sitting there and bitching about how people suck. Which is not exactly an uncommon pastime. It's Jacob who's actually, y'know, messing with people's lives. Of the two, based on just that moment, there's one I know I'm not happy to have out and about messing around with humanity in general, and one I can only speculate about.

Which, again, isn't to say that I actually think Smokey is a poor misunderstood woobie or anything. I'm with you on the whole "sinking the island plus Smokey and whatever is left of Jacob" thing. I'm just reserving judgment on the question of which one is actually the lesser evil here, and to what extent their opinions and statements about each other can be trusted.

The question is then, is all that he does only an incredibly long and involved con to get someone to kill Smokey?

You have a twisty and devious mind. Which means you might be right. :) Although Jacob hasn't given any indication of being anything but surprised and unhappy about being dead, so that would hardly seem to be part of his plan, if there is one.

Or rather, if Smokey is really evil incarnate, why not just kill him, instead of keeping him imprisoned?

A damned good question. Part of the "rules" they've talked about, perhaps? Which just raises the question of where the heck those rules come from in the first place.

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Yeah, I thought they were somehow unable to kill each other, that someone else had to do it. Wasn't that specified at some point?

Something that intrigued me about the ep is that Hurley is better at talking to dead people than Miles is. Miles gets their dying thoughts, but Hurley has whole convos.

Also, is the evil being contained the man in black? Maybe it's something else altogether and they are both guardians in their way.

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Miles gets their dying thoughts, but Hurley has whole convos.

I'm positive they actually changed that. When we get Miles first mini flashback, he is talking to the ghost and asking him where he hid his money. The ghost seems to answer, too, because he finds it.

Also, is the evil being contained the man in black? Maybe it's something else altogether and they are both guardians in their way.

I don't think the Man in Black is a guardian - he told Sawyer (and I think Kate and Sayid?) that there was nothing to protect the island from and that Jacob was talking nonsense.

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It could still be something other than him. The writers are twisty like that, and the island does have weird properties. Desmond thought he was containing a plague.

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Sorry,

wee_warrior, I thought this was

selenak's journal; I didn't look at the link to this discussion properly.

Astro, could we continue any discussion on your journal as my comments are screened here?

And, yes, I miss Locke, too. Although, I will admit, less than I expected to, since we still get Terry O'Quinn being awesome at us every week (and twice over on weeks with alt!Locke bits).

Agreed! I was very upset at Locke's death because I felt that he got such an incredibly raw deal all along. However alt-Locke and most of the others are having a much better life without Jacob's intervention, which already had me doubting Jacob's goodness. As for the B&W symbolism of the stones and clothes etc, those colours have quite different meaning in other cultures. [wonders about Egypt]

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Sorry,

vilakins, I had completely forgotten that the comments are set to screened! You can discuss here, if you want, I don't mind.

Agreed! I was very upset at Locke's death because I felt that he got such an incredibly raw deal all along.

Exactly. I didn't really like his zealotry, but I felt horrible when it turned out he had basically been duped yet again.

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Sorry for not checking where I was going! Astro's post mentioned

selenak so I assumed the link went there. :-P

I think Locke was a fanatic because he desperately needed something to live for. He seems to be having a much better life this time around, though I'm not sure if the father who would come to his wedding is his biological one, whom Ford is after, or his adoptive one. We never heard much about the couple who brought him up.

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He seems to be having a much better life this time around, though I'm not sure if the father who would come to his wedding is his biological one, whom Ford is after, or his adoptive one.

This makes me sound a lot more geeky than I usually am about the show, but when SideLocke was fired by Randy, you can see some pictures on his cubicle wall and one is of him and Anthony Cooper, so it's definitely his biological father.

I suppose there will be some sort of catch: maybe Cooper heard that the Fords died because of his scheme and gave up his con ways, or he was caught and served jail time? For whatever reason, he definitely seems to have stopped short of conning his son.

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